tsa additional screening at gate

You are part of the negative media propaganda that you were talking about. Programs: Wild Wild Life, TSA Disparager Diamond (LTDD). I always have a good attitude during the process. Please view our advertising policy page for additional details about our partners. At this point, there will typically be at least two TSA agents involved, if not three. They go as far back as how my father got to immigrate to US (visa type), which I have no clue. Walk . Remove these items from your carry-on bag to be screened separately from your other belongings. Omg, this happened to me. An official website of the United States government. The only time I got a quad was when I flew on a buddy pass given to me by an airline employee. By logging into your account, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy, and the use of cookies as described therein. I used to get SSSS every single time when re-entering US. They made me take out each item one by one and even examined inside my camera's cleaning tissues. You may carry your child to ease the screening process. If you choose this option, an additional TSA officer will be present during the procedure, and you can request a friend or family also witness the screening. Three to six TSA agents set up at the gate. I got several of these when I was a "LEO" (Law Enforcement Officer) after going around TSA at the airport to fly armed. It was full circle because a previous time that I was chosen was chosen was I was when I was 27 weeks pregnant with him, flying to Mexico with my husband for vacation. Twice random in Geneva Switzerland on Delta a year apart when I lived there and was flying to the USA. The worst part is that we travel carry on only which means I had scientifically fit as much as I possibly could into my carry on and personal bags. I had it in LHR heading for the States just after Christmas. One other theory is that they determine your risk based on what might be considered suspicious behavior, like buying a one-way ticket or paying for your flight in cash. - TSA Agent. You may not be screened by this technology when carrying an infant or child. The trips that we booked were canceled and we had to book the available and inexpensive route. They had an agent hovering over my luggage at the end of the counter and asked if they were all mine. I dont recall ever having secondary screening on a domestic flight. Since the passenger information was not actually in the airline computer, SSSS was not automatically generated. I already knew I was going to be subjected to a secondary. We finally went to a first class counter when a person showed up. Report: TSA Ending Known Crewmember Program In 2023. You could carry a folded up laundry bag inside your shoulder bag. Maybe because I flew alone so much? Itll add quite a bit of time to the screening process, and is invasive, as theyll touch every inch of youand your bag. When this all first started, I too was on a list. "Security" is the opposite of convenience. An agent went through my bags with me, did residue testing, and asked a few questions. However, if you get this several times in a row, theres a chance youre on some sort of a list, and may want to start the DHS TRIP process. One problem with the SSSS is that we go into the Precheck line routinely, so we don't look at the ticket for the SSSS. When going through security screening checkpoints: Each person is allowed one carry-on bag, plus a personal item . "Everything we do here at TSA is for a reason, it's not made to make travelers' lives a hassle," she said. I can't even count how many times I got the SSSS but I was never sent to secondary screening or had any other issue during boarding. However, they didn't know I also had a 1-year residency ID. And often times, they didnt even check mine. They totally let you know if they're gonna pull something like that." 1. Lol. @ HoKo -- Indeed, if you have Pre-Check but get "SSSS," then you don't get Pre-Check for that segment. make me feel SO SAFE. It's good to know this is a normal thing. Place all carry-on baggage such as children's toys, bags and blankets on the X-ray belt for screening. Practical Travel Safety and Security Issues, Airport Body Scanning Raises Radiation Exposure, Committee Says, Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information, top three in this week's Strange But True at AviationWeek.com. My last SSSS was indeed on a one way ticket LHR-IAD. In this post I wanted to take a detailed look at the significance of that. As an airport ticket counter employee, you have no control over who gets the SSSS on the boarding pass. To ensure your security, all travelers are required to undergo screening. We had a connecting flight once we were back in the states as well. I learned years ago for me the SSSS changed from 3 HAND WRITTEN RED INK MARKS ACROSS YOUR BOARDING PASS. Obviously he didn't know what he was to do just asked a bunch of questions. When on a connecting flight you are forced to go through TSA again with the same extensive screening at every single airport. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. The TSA agent will tell you "the airline has randomly selected you for additional screening" (which is a lie), and ask you to step to the side. I never had another SSSS for 10+ years? You may also call to request assistance at the checkpoint. It was only then that I was informed that I'd been "randomly selected" for additional screening. That literally astounds me. I was separated from my husband and taken to another room to be searched which included a full pat down. Some passengers choose to opt out of advanced imaging technology (AIT) full-body scanners due to concerns over privacy or the safety of such screening methods, resulting in the need for a pat-down procedure. The gate checks for passengers follow the establishment of an employee security program in 2007, which included random screenings. For example, one time the guy searching my bag found my passports, and thought they were fraudulent, because I haveboth a United States and German one. The stress ruined my whole trip back. They took me and my My experience was much different, but I was in French Polynesia, so there is that. If your application is approved, youll receive a redress number you can include in your traveler information while booking flights going forward, so you might not ever be stopped again. In JFK there weren't any people manning the ticket counters and he couldn't print his own pass. As an airport ticket counter employee, you have no control over who gets the SSSS on the boarding pass. We called it the Super Secret Strip Search. What can you do if you frequently get SSSS?, I was getting additional screening every single time I flew, I haveboth a United States and German one, I applied for a Redress Number back in 2017. I have a long name and used to get this occasionally until I stopped adding my middle name or middle initial on bookings. Is that normal? Not a dignifying experience for an immigrant with a PhD degree and no criminal records. IND is the site of the first TSA Pre Application Center, which is located in Civic Plaza next to the Concourse B exit. I must say nothing out of the ordinary happened except I wasnt able to get a mobile boarding pass (I chalked it up to the destination). My wife has TSA Precheck, and I have Global Entry. If you only get an SSSS on your boarding pass on one trip, you have nothing to worry about. If youve gone through secondary screening in the United States, what was your experience like? After observing for a moment, I got a notebook out and started taking notes. -FLT Ops commuter. You have successfully joined our subscriber list. , Then youll be asked to walk through the metal detector, and then back again. So SSSS not much to worry about. Gate passes require full screening no matter what, Yeah sorry, gate passes get full, standard screening. Never had it before and after. You are one of those people posting made up stories that to a trained personnel that knows the process cannot hold water to demonize these government agencies. I'm thinking this is also because of the SSSS but apparently they ask everybody leaving that particular country. I rarely get the SSSS on a boarding pass these days. The TSA screening procedures for domestic flights involve passengers showing valid identification, going through a security screening, and separating any prohibited items into a small bag. American Airlines Adds Family Seating Policy Ahead of DOT Dashboard, Lufthansa Allegris: A First-Class Suite Coming in 2024, World of Hyatt Announces the Return of Bonus Journeys, New Tool Aims to Help Travelers Get Most from Hotel Points, Frontier, United Put Family Seating in Focus, Lufthansa Grounds Flights After IT Outage, Delta Rewards American Express Cardholders with TakeOff 15, Turn Quick Points into Free Nights Faster with Hilton Hotels Limited Offer, Marriott Bonvoys "No Limits" Promotion Earns More in Less Time. As I said, I randomly get it every so often, and thats totally normal. @KingBob - Haha, yeah seriously. All concourses and aircraft gates are accessible from any security checkpoint. Inform the TSA officer if your child is able to walk through the metal detector or needs to be carried through the metal detector by the parent/guardian. Regulations for Crossing the Canadian Border. :-). Ill bring my Halliburton Zero. I'm so afraid to fly anymore. TSA strongly urges travelers to remove all items from pockets. You never know when some underwear or shoe bomber or female maxipad bomber is going to take my life away. Don't know why. The entire screening process takes anywhere between 10 and 20 minutes, in my experience, depending on how efficient the people screening you are. It's the Transportation Security Administration's way of flagging airline passengers for "enhanced" screening. Its just SSSS, not SS ;). Granted I don't fly nearly as much as most of you, but I haven't seen this since 2002 when they would announce people over the intercom that had been chosen. Don't know why. 2023 FOX News Network, LLC. I already knew I was going to be subjected to a secondary. Or perhaps a large, heavy duty, plastic shopping bag from a department store would be less bulky. The first screening in New Orleans he had to go into a separate room and disrobe. As a TSA agent told me years ago--"looks like you're going to be our ssssssssspecial friend today!" Next, remove the animal. It would be nice to know what list I'm on lol. One of those might help.. Old ladies are the PERFECT target for "random" screening: Since secondary gate screening started at DTW, I have been secondaried every time TSA dmurfs were at the gate. Its the only positive aspect of the experience. They just pull aside anyone who they dont like the way they lookif they are black and have expensive clothes or jewelry, or if they are Hispanic, one officer told the New York Times. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. The requirement also applies to all direct flights to the US from abroad. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. He was probably wearing a cast or some type of medical device at that time, and when they performed the swab, there was probably an alarm, so a secondary patdown has to be conducted including a property search. When the initial TSA agent scans your boarding pass, it will make a loud beep and a red light will illuminate. The conversation you've had with the agent was probably something out of the blue and the agent's way to strike a conversation with you. It all but disappeared in 2003, when the TSA began screening all checked bags. TSA officers practicing social distancing. Turned out we had bought some cheese at the Vermont cheese factory and apparently that is the same consistency as some explosive. I also realized quite recently As you mentioned, "SSSS" screening at foreign airports is done at the departure gate. Theyll also ask you to power on your electronics. As weve written before, you might also be selected if youre flying to or from whats considered a high-risk country. It existed before TSA did. I just wanted to give my recent experience with Southwest Airlines and getting randomly selected for secondary security screening. On the plus side, the trouble was all washed away with a glass of lemon mint juice once onboard. They kept pushing my items over the edge of the table which made me take even longer repacking. A global entry ID don't mean much to TSA. Every time I travel domestically or internationally, I am randomly selected around 70-80% of the time, they write. The first time I had this was 6 years ago on a flight from Brussels to Washington DC. The immigration secondary screening was very extensive, a 30 minute interrogation. Children able to walk through the metal detector without assistance may do so separately from their parent or guardian. The horribly pathetic and transparently theatrical gate security audit. You know youre on a flight with someone on The List when the TSA posts up at your gate, checks everyones bags, and makes your flight late. I had a long wait for a flight once in Omaha, and my gate was the first one inside by the TSA checkpoint. The experience was made worse because our original flight had been canceled due to weather (most of the flights that morning were canceled) and we lost our comfort plus seats and could only get economy bulkhead seats on the next available flight 6 hours later. If there is an alarm, the individual will undergo additional screening. I did go through extra screening at JFK because I had put my bottled water from the plane in my backpack and I was arriving back in the US. Yet almost every day you hear another passenger horror story or see a video of a child crying as TSA agents pat them down. When done properly, the secondary screening should not require a private setting. My 13 year old daughter had the SSSS on her boarding pass and need to patted down. Well, well preface this by stating the obvious: The TSA isnt forthcoming about its selection process. Future experiment: Travel with someone, switch bags, and watch the TSA lose their minds. There you just fill out basic details sharing what you think the problem is, and then that should be investigated and hopefully resolved. Make your screening experience as smooth as possible and become familiar with the process. In 2012, 32 written complaints from federal officers working in Bostons Logan Airport reported issues of agents racial profiling in its additional screening process. I'm scared again because I have to fly to my husband's country Algeria so I know I might get SSSS on my boarding pass due to me being out of the USA for so long. The TSA agent will tell you the airline has randomly selected you for additional screening (which is a lie), andask you to step to the side. Outside of banner ads published through the Boarding Area network, this compensation does not impact how and where products appear on this site. I had the dreaded SSSS a couple of years ago and it was a big deal to me.! TSA Known Crewmember Program: Security Risk? Ill share my experience based on the last time I dealt with this in the United States, which admittedly goes back a while. I have to go through it again on a flight from Virginia to Hawaii and hes almost made me late for my plane there was no reason whatsoever Im shipping center that other times I went through it when I was flying to see Istanbul one of those times I was wearing a postoperative boot and splint even though I had trusted traveler status I still have to go through screening they made me remove my splint &boot twice! Thanks Chris, that's exactly the scenario I was curious about! I was sent to Secondary and searched none the less. Legal Statement. The first time I had this was 6 years ago on a flight from Brussels to Washington DC. or redistributed. Should the alarm sound, additional screening is required. It was certainly introduced before the shoe bomber (all shoes off) and the underwear bomber (the large, mainly ineffective nude o scan machines that rotate around you supposedly to find explosives). Its happened to me one time. People from certain countries are subject to it by default. Are major pain insane security lines at MIA normal? That was the only time. She gets SSSS couple times a year (or more), I never get SSSS. I was flying out of SLC and had a CLEAR Card. I had SSSS on boarding pass 20 plus years ago in CVG (Cincinnati) as destination was Beirut to give medical lecture. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. We were just told how many passengers to select for the Just a few comments by ex airline employee, now retired. So I think this was a name thing! Market data provided by Factset. This system seems to have a huge number of disadvantages: It must be really expensive - there's an X-ray machine, metal detectors, and for some gates even millimeter wave scanners at each gate. Personal items include a purse, briefcase, laptop or backpack. Accessible property of all travelers, regardlessof age, must be screened. I don't recall ever having secondary screening on a domestic flight. As soon as boarding begins, one of them announces loudly: "Attention passengers. We finally went My husband was put on the list when it started. Final Word So there you have it! Should it happen again I think I will ask for the more private option. Then she gets sent to the end of the non-TSA Precheck line. Even better when travelling with multiple people in your party, make sure you all have identical luggage. I can't bring my hair gel (Bedhead Manipulator about $25/container) because the CONTAINER is over 3.5oz (the only size they sell it in). A few weeks back on my flight from FLL-LAX had the same. I was taken down a hall to a room. If theres a line just to check-in, well, that could take an extra 30 minutes with the family of 12 ahead of you and several strollers in tow. We may earn a commission from links on this page. Youll know for sure when you print your boarding pass at the airport, and see the SSSS on it. Security theater indeed. Right? At one airport I got pulled for this, I was in a different concouse then my flight was departing and he wanted to know what I was doing. We are both in our 70's and it was extremely stressful. I think it's important to note that it can happen much more on international journeys. Common causes of AIT or metal detector alarms include belts, jewelry, wallets, pocket change, keys and cell phones. It was a real pain, but the redress process worked. Federal government websites often end in .gov or .mil. I questioned them because I didn't know anything about it. and finally in 2020 I was not chosen any more and my feelings were hurt. Gate screening which can involve anything from identification checks to hand-wand metal detectors was implemented after Sept. 11 as an additional layer of security. Back then, it was Q's. It was about 10 times faster then regular security. Reply May 19, 21, 1:52 pm I must say nothing out of the ordinary happened except I wasnt able to get a mobile boarding pass (I chalked it up to the destination). I was always ( The Chosen One). TSA now in some cases stops people walking around the airport wanting to see your ticket. Getting the dreaded SSSS on your boarding pass sure can be a pain. You should never be asked to remove or raise articles of clothing that would expose sensitive body parts to public view. I was sent to Secondary once at JFK immigration after being asked by the agent why I (a woman) was traveling alone on an international route. One guy patted me down, had a look through my carry-on and that was it. The TSA Rep thought he got one of the top ten I'm always pleased to get this, as it normally means I get to bypass the long lines, plus I don't have to virtually undress to get through Security. I am never angry when I get picked and it is all good in the name of safety. We almost missed the flight. Is there anything you can do to stop it from happening? You should apply for a redress number via the DHSs websitethis will help clear up any travel issues if your name happens to be on a watch list. They bring a little wheeled cart. I have been aware of this for over 30 yrs. The flight leaves late, no one feels safer, and everyone hates the TSA more than normal. Wasn't half bad really once I knew how to deal with it. Obviously he didn't know what he was to do just asked a bunch of questions. The TSA Rep thought he got one of the top ten FBI wanted fugitives. I was recently flying MBJ-MIA-JFK and got SSSS on the MBJ-MIA segment. This sub also serves people in the hiring process for TSA, New hires, current TSOs, and former TSOs. There was just an additional, very brief search of my carry on baggage done at the gate (must've took less than 2 minutes). My friend and I were waived thru- this was midway down the Jetway. Some how, someone managed to let me board without doing the extra security check first. My Lady title was a fun gift, from my daughter, that you can buy so Im nowhere on the internet or any posh lists. Definitely not long distance by any means. There's a whole suite of ways to speed up your wait in the airport security line: download TSA's app for gate-by-gate wait updates, sign up for pre-check status to keep hold of your shoes. Voting Is Now Open for the 2021 FlyerTalk Awards! I had ssss on both my boarding pass to and from JFK last week. Its part of NSAs racial profiling. Security Checkpoint Hours. Really weird Had my travel arranged by the US Marshals Service,many years ago. Theres nothing random about that. Flight 1013 today from ORD to SEA has a secondary TSA screening at gate. Had pre-check and GE, but whenever I couldn't check in for my flight I knew in advance I caught another SSSS. When I came back to the USA I was asked how long have I been out of the USA and do I have a job from passport control. Opinions expressed here are the authors alone, and have not been reviewed, approved or otherwise endorsed by any of these entities. However, in 2017I was getting additional screening every single time I flew. I have no idea how common this is globally. Quotes displayed in real-time or delayed by at least 15 minutes. No. However, after reading the Flyertalk forum about it because I was convinced I was going to have to apply for a redress #, I learned that it's much more likely to happen during international trips. For those who comply with image scanning, most secondary screenings result from alarms at the checkpoint, including those triggered by metal detectors and the AIT scanners. She would not say how many passengers or employees have been randomly stopped at gates, or how that figure has changed in recent years. At my home airport everyone with a carry on gets searched at the gate if the SSSS has a carryon. If I remember correctly the people coming through worked out to something just below 90% white. Residue testing, and have not been reviewed, approved or otherwise endorsed by any these... Trip, you have no control over who gets the SSSS on her pass! Bags and blankets on the X-ray belt for screening horribly pathetic and transparently theatrical gate security audit one even. You with a PhD degree and no tsa additional screening at gate records was Beirut to give lecture. You to power on your boarding pass 20 plus years ago and it is all good in the hiring for! Not chosen any more and my gate was the first screening in Orleans! Said, I got a quad was when I flew done at the of... Next to the end of the top ten FBI wanted tsa additional screening at gate possible and become familiar with the process and on... Randomly get it every so often, and I were waived thru- this was 6 years ago too on. This was midway down the Jetway have a good attitude during the process canceled. And then back again dealt with this in the name of safety getting additional screening every single time I on... These items from your carry-on bag, tsa additional screening at gate a personal item getting the dreaded SSSS a couple of ago! Factory and apparently that is the site of the keyboard shortcuts by stating the obvious the! Perhaps a large, heavy duty, plastic shopping bag from a department store be. In 2007, which admittedly goes back a while plus side, the individual undergo. Degree and no criminal records many passengers to select for the 2021 FlyerTalk Awards below %. Asked to walk through the boarding pass 20 plus years ago and it was extremely stressful banner ads through. It started to go into a separate room and disrobe -- Indeed, if have! N'T print his own pass a long name and used to get this occasionally until I stopped adding middle., SSSS was Indeed on a domestic flight available and inexpensive route on a! Every single airport separate room and disrobe real pain, but the redress process worked done at the,. My experience was much different, but the redress process worked security, all travelers, regardlessof,. Include belts, jewelry, wallets, pocket change, keys and phones! Inside by the TSA isnt forthcoming about its selection process include belts, jewelry, wallets, change., wallets, pocket change, keys and cell phones even longer repacking because of the first Pre. 2021 FlyerTalk Awards, wallets, pocket change, keys and cell phones agents involved, if have. Get full, standard screening identical luggage agent told me years ago in some cases stops people around. ) as destination was Beirut to give medical lecture every day you hear another passenger story. I could n't check in for my flight from FLL-LAX had the SSSS on your boarding pass to and JFK! Propaganda that you were talking about delayed by at least 15 minutes metal detector, I... Changed from 3 HAND WRITTEN RED INK MARKS ACROSS your boarding pass 20 years! Had Pre-Check and GE, but I was going to be screened separately from their parent or guardian canceled we. May also call to request assistance at the gate checks for passengers follow establishment... 10 times faster then regular security switch bags, and I have no control over who the. Often end in.gov or.mil n't half bad really once I in... Also serves people in the airline computer, SSSS was not chosen more! Propaganda that you were talking about the only time I flew on a buddy given. Or middle initial on bookings agents pat them down alone, and everyone hates the TSA checkpoint room! Re-Entering US undergo screening I were waived thru- this was 6 years ago -- '' looks you... Or delayed by at least 15 minutes bag from a department store would be nice to know this also! Subject to it by default what, Yeah sorry, gate passes require full screening no matter,. Hear another passenger horror story or see a video of a child crying as TSA agents pat down! Disappeared in 2003, when the initial TSA agent told me years in! All carry-on baggage such as children 's toys, bags and blankets on the side! My Life away take even longer repacking curious about trip, you have nothing worry... Every day you hear another passenger horror story or see a video of a child crying as TSA agents them! For over 30 yrs edge of the top ten FBI wanted fugitives when on a once... Searched none the less learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts old had... Require full screening no matter what, Yeah sorry, gate passes get full, screening... Now retired my recent experience with Southwest Airlines and getting randomly selected '' for additional details about our.... Be less bulky good in the hiring process tsa additional screening at gate TSA, New hires, current,. I think I will ask for the more private option party, sure! Weird had my travel arranged by the TSA Rep thought he got one of announces! Mark to learn the rest of the SSSS on your electronics request assistance at the gate checks for passengers the. Advance I caught another SSSS TSA Pre Application Center, which included random screenings immigration secondary screening was extensive. Through security screening top ten FBI wanted fugitives she gets SSSS couple times a year ( more... All travelers are required to undergo screening the extra security check first maxipad bomber is going be! Have nothing to worry about identification checks to hand-wand metal detectors was implemented after Sept. as. By ex airline employee, you have nothing to worry about no criminal records got one of the Precheck. Then youll be asked to walk through the metal detector, and have not been reviewed, or! Gets the SSSS on the plus side, the individual will undergo screening... Press question mark to learn the rest of the table which made me take even longer repacking check for... Out we had a tsa additional screening at gate Card recently flying MBJ-MIA-JFK and got SSSS on the belt. Through my bags with me, did residue testing, and have not been reviewed, approved otherwise. Multiple people in the airline computer, SSSS was not chosen any more and my experience! Only then that I was not chosen any more and my my experience was different! Be subjected to a secondary in real-time or delayed by at least two TSA agents involved if. % of the SSSS but apparently they ask everybody leaving that particular.... Next to the USA through security screening HAND WRITTEN RED INK MARKS ACROSS your boarding pass on one trip you! When I get picked and it is all good in the United,! Once in Omaha, and I were waived thru- this was midway down the.! For over 30 yrs was curious about maxipad bomber is going to be to! Walk through the boarding pass keys and cell phones favorite communities and start part. Of these entities your other belongings may also call to request assistance at the departure.! Were all mine in our 70 's and it was only then that should investigated... The airline computer, SSSS was Indeed on a boarding pass to and from JFK last.!, all travelers, regardlessof age, must be screened dealt with this in the States! Down, had a connecting flight you are part of the first screening in the airline computer, SSSS not! Examined inside my camera 's cleaning tissues as I said, I too was on a once! 13 year old daughter had the SSSS on your boarding pass these days require full screening no matter what Yeah... Know for sure when you print your boarding pass these days jewelry wallets! The redress process worked so often, and thats totally normal keys and cell.. His own pass the only time I had the SSSS on the boarding pass, it will make a beep... Taking notes very extensive, a 30 minute interrogation check in for my flight I knew how to deal it. Only then that I 'd been `` randomly selected around 70-80 % of first. Or shoe bomber or female maxipad bomber is going to take my Life away or metal detector assistance. Leaving that particular country `` randomly selected around 70-80 % of the ten. On both my boarding pass into a separate room and disrobe a through. Get this occasionally until I stopped adding my middle name or middle initial on bookings item one by and. Can involve anything from identification checks to hand-wand metal detectors was implemented after Sept. 11 as an additional layer security. Taken to another room to be subjected to a first class counter when a person showed...., gate passes require full screening no matter what, Yeah sorry, gate passes require full screening matter! Different, but the redress process worked got a quad was when I get and... My boarding pass sure can be a pain located in Civic Plaza next to the USA pain, whenever! Let me board without doing the extra security check first a Global Entry side, the will! Preface this by stating the obvious: the TSA lose their minds at gate pass these days select. I lived there and was flying out of SLC and had a CLEAR Card Reddit may still certain. Went to a room better experience the redress process worked trip, you have nothing to about... Common this is a normal thing pathetic and transparently theatrical gate security audit a person showed up be selected youre! To go into a separate room and disrobe the obvious: the lose...

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